ato and water replacement questions

Hey All,

I also posted this on Reefcentral....


here is what i would like to do....

i will have 2 sensors

sensor 1 is low level
sensor 2 is high level

pump 1 is ro top off
pump 2 is empty from sump
pump 3 is refill saltwater from storage tank

normally when sensor 1 senses low level pump 1 turns on to refill until sensor 2 trips...turning pump off...normal ato......

on a certain schedule (daily or weekly) i would like to switch to water replacement....

pump 2 turns on and drains sump until sensor 1 trips...at that time pump 2 turns off and pump 3 turns on to refill sump.... when this completes the normal ato mentioned above resumes...


Can i do this? how

thanks

Larry

Yes you can! I just did this to set up my automatic water changes.

Check out this post to set it up http://www.aquariumcomputer.com/Foru...hread.php?p=63

does the upper or lower sensor trip the ato to run?

if its the lower sensor couldnt your water be down 50% to the sensor drain 50% of the normal drain amount and then add 100% salt water?

so not a 1 to 1 relationship on drain to fill???

if the upper senser triggers ato and there is no differential the sump will always be at the high point when auto water change kicks on forcing a 1 to 1 relationship....

which way does it operate with the config in the link?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by larryfl1

does the upper or lower sensor trip the ato to run?

if its the lower sensor couldnt your water be down 50% to the sensor drain 50% of the normal drain amount and then add 100% salt water?

so not a 1 to 1 relationship on drain to fill???

if the upper senser triggers ato and there is no differential the sump will always be at the high point when auto water change kicks on forcing a 1 to 1 relationship....

which way does it operate with the config in the link?

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The ATO operates on the upper sensor. so the water drains to the lower sensor then fills back up to the upper sensor.

ok...so the ato only works on upper sensor? ato is not affected by the lower sensor....lower sensor only has to do with drain for water changes

now the next question...which probes are the most reliable??

float, optical or the new external style?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by larryfl1

ok...so the ato only works on upper sensor? ato is not affected by the lower sensor....lower sensor only has to do with drain for water changes

now the next question...which probes are the most reliable??

float, optical or the new external style?

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Sorry can't really help you with that I have only tried two float style and had not had any issues with it yet.

will the sump return pump burn out when water is drained from the sump

i want to know if the return pump will burn out during water change

You want that the return pump is switched off during AWC?

then do this: use socket function "[inverse] Water change" for the power outlet where the return pumps is connected

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matthias

You want that the return pump is switched off during AWC?

then do this: use socket function "[inverse] Water change" for the power outlet where the return pumps is connected

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Hi

The problem I have with the above set up is when automating larger water changes, the return pump can not be turned off at the start.

The reason for this is that if the return pump is turned off then the water that flows over and resides in the overflow boxes and pipes will drain down into the sump and raise the level of the float switches in the sump above the original auto top up levels. This would complicate the automation when trying to return the levels to the normal levels after refilling the salt water.

The other problem is that if I leave the return pump running throughout the saltwater change, once the tank level has drained to below the overflow boxes, the last stage in the sump will empty! leaving my return pump running dry until it is filled up again. This could cause damage to my return pump and so I would not want to do this either.

The solution I have come up with is listed below and I would like to know from a moderator before purchasing the profilux 3 that I am able to program this with the software as this would be one of the main reasons I purchase the system. I travel quite alot and want to be able to perform salt water changes remotely whilst I am away.

Please see attached diagram to understand more fully

Pump 1 saltwater drain
Pump 2 saltwater fill
Pump 3 auto top off
Pump 4 return pump

Level sensor 1 (auto top) + (second saltwater fill)
Level sensor 2 (leakage detection) + (return pump)
Level sensor 3 (second auto top off) + (Salt water fill level)

Function: saltwater change

Level sensor 1 (auto top) CHANGES TO (second saltwater fill)
Level sensor 2 (leakage detection) CHANGES TO (return pump)
Level sensor 3 (second auto top off) CHANGES TO (Salt water fill level)

Pump 1 saltwater drain ON

Level sensor 2 (return pump) REACHES LOW LEVEL
Pump 4 return pump OFF

5 mins after function start ie. (Pump 1 saltwater drain ON)

Pump 1 saltwater drain OFF
Pump 2 saltwater fill ON (*Timer starts)

Level Sensor 2 (return pump) REACHES HIGHER LEVEL/ OR RAISES LEVEL
Pump 4 return pump ON

Level sensor 3 (Salt water fill level) or Level sensor 1 (second saltwater fill) REACHES LEVEL
Pump 2 saltwater fill OFF

(If maximum time limit is reached from *Timer start then pump automatically switches off, alarm sounds and email notification that problem has occurred. I no problems occurred then sensors switch back as below)

Level sensor 1 (second saltwater fill) CHANGES TO (auto top)
Level sensor 2 (return pump) CHANGES TO (leakage detection)
Level sensor 3 (Salt water fill level) CHANGES TO (second auto top off)


Can this be achieved?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shardyl

Hi

The problem I have with the above set up is when automating larger water changes, the return pump can not be turned off at the start.

The reason for this is that if the return pump is turned off then the water that flows over and resides in the overflow boxes and pipes will drain down into the sump and raise the level of the float switches in the sump above the original auto top up levels. This would complicate the automation when trying to return the levels to the normal levels after refilling the salt water.


Can this be achieved?

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you say it complicates auto-waterchanges => the matters if you turn off your return pump , because you will not know the amount of water will ato-ing.

This is incorrect because you do know the quantity ( it will always be the same (from max water above ato , to minimal sensor ) because of your ATO that was active before the auto-water change keeps its at the same level so the cycle will always start with the same amount of water so you don't need a level to the top quantity , ( as long you you fill long enough with new water, time the time it takes to let the pump reach the level + add some extra seconds.

after switching on the return pump after the ATO water change , if you over filled ( small amount , since you timed it and you will never over fill since the timer is prevent that )

its even better to under fill a small amount , your ATO will top off this minimal amount like it would normally do.

Xiaans solution is KISS and its proven its works , yours seems to be very complex and might be impossible with the profilux. ( switching functions of level switches depending on states
also big water changes , or 2 smaller ones , its doesn't make alot of difference. Both have pros and cons.
)

I understand that I do not need to know the amount of water auto topping as this will be determined by the current level of the sensor at any time.

The problem is that if i turn the return pump off at the start, the last stage in the sump (where all level sensors are)will immidiately have more water in it than before (due to all the water draining down from the overflow boxes and pipes). The level in the sump will now be higher than the level it was at before and there will be no way of lowering this level.

Over time as more water changes are performed this level will keep getting higher and higher and I will eventually have to drain some water from the sump manually.

I want a system that keeps the exact same levels in the sump as there were originally so that the total tank volume never changes. I believe the solution above will do this but as i can not test the programming in demo mode on the software, I am unsure if I will be able to program this.

I hope this makes sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shardyl

I understand that I do not need to know the amount of water auto topping as this will be determined by the current level of the sensor at any time.

The problem is that if i turn the return pump off at the start, the last stage in the sump (where all level sensors are)will immidiately have more water in it than before (due to all the water draining down from the overflow boxes and pipes). The level in the sump will now be higher than the level it was at before and there will be no way of lowering this level.

Over time as more water changes are performed this level will keep getting higher and higher and I will eventually have to drain some water from the sump manually.

I want a system that keeps the exact same levels in the sump as there were originally so that the total tank volume never changes. I believe the solution above will do this but as i can not test the programming in demo mode on the software, I am unsure if I will be able to program this.

I hope this makes sense.

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your reasoning is still flawed , doing water changes with an off return pump, will not cause you to get more and more and more water in your system ( to the point ) you will have to drain it your self. => don't forget once you turn on your return sump and display become 1 volume off water again. ( and if you unfill by timer , try to get it as correct as possible ) once you activate the return pump ( filling your pipes and overflow boxes )
your ATO will fill it to the point it has the exact amount of water then before the water change. if you overfill it will evoporate ( probably in a decend sized tank within a day ) even if you would start an water change after overfilling , it would not matter ( just the drain phase would take longer ( the time it takes to drain the overfilled water )


personally I would drain my sump instead of my display tank , if I turn off my return my corals are already nearly above water , IF I drain water from the display with my return pump off , then I let my return pump turn on after a while to fill the display tank with the water from the sump. then I can slowly fill the sump again while the display tank already has a nice level ( without distroying my corals )

and if you drain from the sump , you don't have the initial concern ( to overflow the sensor ) also doesn't play anymore because it will be drain anyway.

Please understand that I am refilling the tank into the tank and not into the sump but all level sensors are located in the sump (there is a diagram on my original post)

If I turn off the return pump, the sump will have more water in it than when it was turned on as some of the tank water will still be draining from the overflowboxes into the sump and because the volume of the final overflowing water and the size of the drain pipes is greater than the volume of the return pipes there will be more water in the sump.

So the sump water will now be sat still in the final stage will not have any water moving in it, and will be at a higher level.

I then drain and refill the main tank and as the main tank fills back up over the overflow boxes back into the sump it must activate a level sensor in order to turn the saltwater filling pump off. If the level sensors have raised in level since the initial drain, then even if they stop the saltwater pump into the main tank this will still create a higher volume in the tank than before.

If i turn on the return pump now there will still be more volume in the sump than before as the tank volume has already flowed over into the sump and therefore I will end up with higher overall volume than before.

Your point about the water evaporating within a day is not relevent as this will still need to topped up with fresh water as to avoid a higher salinity in the tank.

A Timer to drain the tank would be fine as this does not have to be so accurate but a timer filling the tank will never be an accurate way of getting the exact right amount of water as pump effeciency can vary over time or it may have some debrit in it clogging it or slowing it down.

If however the return pump was activated before the new saltwater got above the overflow boxes in the tank this would solve that problem, draining the sump back to a lower level allowing the original level sensors to return back to their original levels once the new saltwater drained over the boxes back into the sump.

Does this makes sense? I am not being awkward here I just truly would like the simplest solution to this problem. Do you know what I mean? I think I have come up with a solution but am not fully sure if it can be programmed. If you still feel I am missing something or my logic is flawed please explain as I really want to know.

Just wanted to add that there is a stop valve just after the return pump which means that water in the return pipes would also still be sitting in the system during this process adding to the volume previously decribed. Surely someone can understand the problem here?

The solution I believe is to keep the return pump running for a short time after starting the drain pump until the water in the tank has drained below the overflow boxes.

This would then keep the sump level lower and the return pump should then be reactivated before the refill gets to the original levels as to allow the usual tank volume to be flowing through the system.

The level sensors can then stop the saltwater filling pump whilst water is flowing round the system to allow the volume to return to the exact same level as before.

The programming for this is described in my original post and I hope someone can understand and inform me of this is possible or even point out a better solution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blahenazo

personally I would drain my sump instead of my display tank , if I turn off my return my corals are already nearly above water , IF I drain water from the display with my return pump off , then I let my return pump turn on after a while to fill the display tank with the water from the sump. then I can slowly fill the sump again while the display tank already has a nice level ( without distroying my corals )

and if you drain from the sump , you don't have the initial concern ( to overflow the sensor ) also doesn't play anymore because it will be drain anyway.

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Sorry I didnt see this part of your post before for some reason.

I agree with your logic here to a certain extent. The only problem with this is that I would not be able to perform a large water change automatically as I could from the main tank. I dont agree that a short amount of exposure to the air would have a detrimental effect on corals as many corals experience this during low tides anyway.

do you still think my reasoning is flawed? and if so for what reason?

I'm still convinced that you can fill your aqaurium to the same level with or without running the return pump and its less complex to do it with the pump off.
And mode switching of the level sensors is not needed.
The fact I find it more logical to work in the sump but should not make any difference ,
but even for draining from displaytank it works. Stop valves don't make any differences what so ever ( I don't trust them in salt water , too much debrise and snails and calcium )


some asumptions:

1 ) lets state the aquarium is running , and if you turn off your return pump => after X time the sump will recieve MAX_LEVEL_RETURN_PUMP_OFF. <== This level is ALWAYS the same if you turn off the pump and wait time X, agreed ?
2 ) the sensors 1 2 and 3 can be set at any height within you sump ( sensors are suffienctly space from each other ) = agreed ?
3 ) your overflowbox works for any amount of water ( return pump or saltwater fill pump )
3 bis )salt refill pump is of relatively 'low' volume in comparision to return pump = agreed ?
4 ) combining 3 and 3 bis => if you turn off your return pump your display tank will drain to the same level as your salt fill pump would fill it ( if you just drained it ),
remember we are filling the displaytank while the return pump is off
4 ) the sump can take the amount of water if the return pump is off (amount of after time X ) = agreed ?
5 ) 1 water change cycle is never interrupted ( it would probably , fuck up alot of other solutions too )
6 ) ATO level function is disactivated while waterchange. (and uses 1 sensor ) but its not discussed

bare minimum We need 2 sensors to make water change to work.
1 ) is set @ MAX_LEVEL_SUMP_RETURN_PUMP_OFF <= is reached after turning of return and time X
2 ) is set @ MIN_LEVEL_SUMP_RETURN_PUMP_ON <== if we go lower then this the return pump can be in danger of running dry


A. We start a water change cycle.
B. we turn off return pump
C. we wait time X until all the water has reach the sump so MAX_LEVEL_SUMP_RETURN_PUMP_OFF is reached ( no action if sensor would switch , it makes no difference anyway @ this stage)
D. we turn on the drain pump in the display ( and start a timer DRAIN)
E. after time Z we activate return pump until MIN_LEVEL_SUMP_RETURN_PUMP_ON is reached ( switched triggered)
=> too simplify this discussion ( and since we are doing a BIG Water change ) we choose time Z that we are sure that the return pump is pumping all water in the display and it stays in the display ( it doesn't return to sump )
F. so return pump is off and some water in the sump can return to the sump , but most of it remains in the display tank. <== LEVEL G in sump
(LEVEL G its between MAX_LEVEL_SUMP_RETURN_PUMP_OFF and MIN_LEVEL_SUMP_RETURN_PUMP_ON , but the exact amount is of no importance)
G. TIMER DRAIN is reached , we stop drain.
H. we start filling IN THE DISPLAY TANK and we are filling display tank
I. display display is filled ( and its start running via the overflowbox to the sump <= sump is now recieving water via overflow)
K. MAX_LEVEL_SUMP_RETURN_PUMP_OFF is triggered => means we have reached again the 'EXACT'*** same contents of water then before water change. AGREED ?

EXACT: if your nitpicking there will be a bit more in the tank , because there is still water added , if we trigger max level sump we need to switch of the fill pump and if we turn it off there is still a bit of water reaching the sump , but remember point 3 ( refill pump is low volume , so it is a minimal amount)


edit: soem extra timers or max on timer should be added to make it more security offcourse

Hey man, I'm on my iPhone and can't really understand whAt you are saying here at all! Have had a few drinks though ;) will try and read this properly and get my head round it tomorrow. If there truly is a simpler solution to this I am very interested but finding it difficult to understand all your points right now. are you saying a 20 percent water change can be achieved safely and automatically with just two level sensors including an auto top off system, fully with the profilux system with no manual intervension ( obviously excluding mixing and preparing your saltwater storage tank) keeping tank volume the same every time???

If you actually look at my original plan you will see that I WILL be turning the return pump off whilst filling the aquarium. It’s just that I will be turning it off and back on again at later and earlier points which will simply be determined by a level sensor (that’s what they are there for right?)

You say that mode switching is not required but mode switching of some sort will always be required if you are using your level sensors for ato as well as water change. I.e. ato will be disabled whilst water change is occurring.

It makes sense to use 2 level sensors for ato and water change as this allows for extra redundancy should one fail and considering the possible outcome of such a system failing, this would add extra safety. Timers should also be used to add even more safety too.

You say it is more logical to work in the sump and it would not make any difference but how would you expect to drain 20% or even 50% of your overall volume if just working in the sump? This is not possible and you would have to have a drain pump in the tank.

With regards to not trusting stop valves I guess this is your personal choice but many people use them very successfully in reef tanks with no problems. They are located after the return pump so it is virtually impossible to get snails in there. As with all equipment in a reef tank, maintenance will always be required for calcium and debit build up.

You say bare minimum 2 level sensors to make this work. This is a strange thing to say as surely if you have planned the automation properly you would know the exact amount of level sensors you would use to allow the function to be performed as planned and done safely

Your assumptions

Point 1 agreed
Point 2 agreed
Point 3 agreed
Point 3 biz - I presume you mean has a lower flow rate?
Point 4 (1) does not make sense as the salt fill pump would completely overflow the sump if left running and not stopped by a level sensor.
Point 4 (2) makes sense
Point 5 does not make sense. "1 water change cycle is never interrupted ( it would probably , fuck up alot of other solutions too )
“Obviously this wouldn’t be interrupted and imp not sure what you mean by fuck up alot of other solutions too?
Point 6 I agree but this goes against your earlier point because disabling the ato level sensor is basically switching its mode and you said mode switching is not required.

I have to say that I don’t really understand the relevance of these assumptions as they all seem fairly obvious and won’t have much bearing on the A to K plan

Your A TO K PLAN (Excluding J) makes some sense (can not understand it fully and is not fully and logically described) but seems to involve turning the return pump on at some point to allow some drainage of the sump which is exactly what my original plan involves to solve the problem.

With regards to nitpicking. I do not see how wanting the volume of the tank to stay constant could be considered nitpicking considering we are using level sensors and we want to create a reliable, accurate and safe system.

I think your latest plan goes some way to trying to solve the problems that you originally said were my flawed reasoning and I am aware that this kind of water change could be achieved in many ways but am still convinced that my original program is simpler, safer and utilises the level sensors in a more intelligent way to achieve the desired result.

It seems that after all of this you have still not answered my original question on whether my programming sequence can be achieved using the profilux 3 pc software? as this is what I want to know?

I’m not entirely convinced that you have even looked at or understood my original programming sequence and am leaning towards the opinion that your original understanding of all of this was the only thing that was flawed. If you actually have any intension of being helpful then please could you answer whether you think my original sequence could be programmed as I don’t think any further discussions would be particularly helpful

After reading the programming manual I am quite confident that I will be able to program my original sequence using 3 level sensors as the water change and ato function allows for 1 sensor to perform 2 functions depending on which mode it is in. I believe that programmable logic should allow me to customise these functions.

As i seem to be having no luck on this forum in the a way of a confirmation from a moderator or anyone else I guess I am now just going to purchase the system and go for it!

I guess the only way of proving anything in life is by actually doing it! If anyone is actually interested and it doesn't seem anyone is (I may as well be talking to myself right now haha) I will post back here in any case and hopefully with the succesfull programming instructions for people should they ever want to automate large water changes in their systems.

I will also do a youtube video as well which if this works, would help to promote the profilux 3 system.

Bye for now ;)

Here you are Shardy!!!! I have been trying to mimic your water change setup from your video but can not figure out how to do it in PL. I cant seem to get help from the forums so would you be willing to share your PL config? Im doing mine a lot like yours but draining from the sump and filling to the sump. But I want the return pump to shut off once it hits the bottom sensor to maximize my water change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rcmania

Here you are Shardy!!!! I have been trying to mimic your water change setup from your video but can not figure out how to do it in PL. I cant seem to get help from the forums so would you be willing to share your PL config? Im doing mine a lot like yours but draining from the sump and filling to the sump. But I want the return pump to shut off once it hits the bottom sensor to maximize my water change.

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Hi

If you are draining from the sump then this will work very differently to mine. I drain from the tank allowing the final levels in the sump to control the process. It requires 2 level sensors top and bottom to make it work exclude your ato sensor. You put sensor/level 1 into min max control mode. This will then work with sensor 2, sensor 1 is max and sensor 2 is min. (sensor/level 3 is your ato)

If i remember right the "water 1" function responds to level 1 which if set to min max control will also control level 2 in that mode.

so now i set my return pump socket (or anything else)to water 1 - inverted. This will turn off any sockets that are set to water 1 inverted and those sockets will stay on permanently if there is always water covering level 2 which is the min control (well below top up level)

If water is not on level 2 the devices set to "water 1" inverted will turn off and only turn on again once level 1 (the max level) has been reached.

remember that your water in the final stage of the sump will always have a high level when the return pump is turned off so what you have to do is find out the sweet spot (high level) so that when that level is reached and your return pump turns back on it will end up standing at your normal running ato level. This is key as you now have the perfect cue to stop fill pumps so that you never have any more water in your system than the normal running quantity.

Now comes the extra automated part.

You can start the process by simply draining water from your tank using a timer. when level 2 is reached your chosen sockets turn off (return pump, mp40's, skimmer etc..) The system continutes for as long as your timer says. Now, heres the final trick.

you must set your salt fill pump socket to programmable logic 6 (or what ever number you want to use)

programmable logic 6 is set to delayed on function and programmable logic 5

the delayed on is the time it takes to drain the amount of water you are changing before the salt fill pump comes on. In my case 260 sec for a 15% water change.

programmable logic 5 is set to AND with input 1 as "water 1" and input 2 as "always on"

This will mean that in the opposite way with the return pump set to water 1 inverted that the max level 1 will always turn off the fill pump.

This system is very safe and would need your ato sensor and your level 1 sensor to fail at the same time to cause a problem. If your salt fill tank only has enough water for 1 water change then you will never overflow your tank by a failure.

I have never had a single problem running this system in 3 years and the profilux optical level sensors have been very reliable.

Hope this helps, any questions just ask.